In the world of public media, we’re accustomed to running down facts and working to dispel the ever encroaching rise of misinformation. But what do you do when it’s coming from within your own family? That’s the question NPR’s Zach Mack set out to answer in a special new series called Alternate Realities. He spends a year trying to understand his father and bring him back to reality, all while their family hangs in the balance. The three-part series is available on the Embedded podcast.
I had to imagine, sort of as a producer myself, that you were weighing the fact that you've got this potentially great story, but it's also probably difficult and maybe embarrassing to a degree for your family. So how did you decide to proceed with this project?
Yeah, I mean, it was a difficult decision, and it is something that I sort of wrestled with throughout the process, but ultimately, I think two things brought me to this decision, which was one, the family was completely on board, and I had their full support. My father was actually enthusiastic about making this project so that that felt good. There wasn't pushback, and everyone was participating. The other thing is, I knew that my story was not unique, that people all over the country are experiencing something very similar, and I wanted to show on a really personal level what that looks like and some of the destruction that these conspiracy theories and these ideas are causing with within the household.
Do you feel like this reporting experience helps you understand something about American politics today in a different way?
Yeah, a little bit. You know, I think generally, when you look around, it feels like the nature of truth is under attack, and then, in my own household, I'm seeing the kind of end result of that. So, yeah, I do think I understand a lot more of the landscape that's sort of playing out throughout American politics, and also just how it's happening, how we're getting to this moment with people becoming radicalized.
How did you go about doing all these conversations with your dad? Because on the one hand, this stems from your impulse to kind of correct him, but on the other hand, you really had to understand the way he looks at the world.
Totally. I mean, , it started with him challenging me to a $10,000 bet, right? And usually when two guys challenge each other, it's because, you know, they've been arguing a while, and now it's like, put up or shut up time, right? And that was sort of what was happening, is my father and I were having these circular arguments, and then he challenged me to this bet as, like, sort of way to finally end the argument once and for all.
But what I realized in reporting this story is that, you know, I used to just try to beat my father with facts and thinking that he just had the wrong fact, and I had to get him the right fact, and then he'd be all set. But that's just not how it works. And so the more time I spent with him and the more research I did, the more I realized that, coming into this with empathy and curiosity and really just trying to have open ended conversations where I really sort of investigate what these ideas, what these conspiracy theories, are doing for him, how he came to these, these ideas, and why they're so appealing to him, and that helped a lot in terms of just understanding how he got here.
Has he heard the show?
He has, yeah, yeah. He heard it. We talked about it last week. You know, I think some of it was, was very difficult for him to hear, but ultimately, he felt it was fair. He thought it did a great job. He was very proud. He was not angry about it.
Has it changed his thinking at all that you can tell?
No, from what I can tell, no because he is challenging me to a second bet for this year along very similar lines. This is definitely a double or nothing. So, you know, I look at this as more of a long-term project in terms of trying to bring him back to reality a little bit. I'm less interested in making a show about it this time, but more interested in just trying to trying to get him back to a shared reality with myself.
This is going to sound like a flip question, and I really don't mean it to, but I see virtually all sports fans entertain some magical thinking, and I found myself wondering, when Ohio State loses, does he accept the outcome?
He does, he does. I think my father has been really gracious in accepting all the outcomes. He accepted the outcome of losing the bet. He acknowledged that he was 0-for-10 on his predictions. You know, Ohio State losses, especially this Michigan one, and the last couple have been difficult for us, but we always accept them. We just don't like them.
This was compelling listening for me, in a way, because I watched a very similar thing happen with a friend, and it started during COVID, and it actually ended up ending a bunch of relationships after decades and decades and decades. Do you have any advice for listeners who might have their own friend or family member who you know has seemingly gone off into the world of misinformation like this?
Yeah, I sort of got into some of this before, but I think the more you're entering these discussions with curiosity, with empathy, and just trying to understand what's under the surface, what about these ideas is so appealing to them, and what are they doing for them. Because oftentimes these conspiracy theories are doing something, whether it's like access to, you know, esoteric knowledge, like the sort of the thought of, like, I'm up on something that you're not up on, right? It sort of elevates you. You feel better about yourself. There's a million reasons why these ideas are so appealing. So you sort of just need to look under the hood and find out. And I just don't think lobbing facts back and forth and yelling at each other is going to work. It doesn't work. We know that.
Do you see access to 24/7 social media, computers, YouTube and all that, since that part of life is probably not going away for most of us. Do you see that as contributing to the dynamic you covered on this series?
Oh, 100% I mean, anybody can get online and say whatever they want, and there's no accountability, there's no fact checking. You know, there's a lot of bad faith actors. I think a lot of the platforms incentivize more extreme and polarizing content. I think also, we live in such uncertain times. We live in a world where every everyone is really not sure about what the next couple of years are going to look like, and people are grasping at certainty, and a lot of times they fall for grifters who give them the promise of that certainty doesn't matter if it's true or not, usually isn't, but there is some comfort in in in someone saying, Hey, This is actually how it is. This is what's really going on. There is some comfort there. But yeah, for sure, the internet has contributed to this. And I think COVID was a real radicalization point for so many people. Everyone was trapped at home, and I don't think anyone liked being home. A lot of people didn't like to be told that they needed to get a vaccine shot. And that was a real radicalizing moment for a lot of people, including my father.
When you got the $10,000, I know, you went to the football game with part of it. Were you able to get it in .U.S currency, or had it been converted into, like, gold bars by then?
You know, I'm still waiting on the check to clear, but it will be in U.S. cash. But, you know, I guess I'm increasingly less confident in our own currency. So maybe I’ll have to get into Bitcoin or something.
I'm just wondering how your mom and sister took this series.
They were really proud. They thought it was beautiful and really well done. Luckily, my sister was in town with me all last week, so she was here when, when everything was like, sort of rolling out. It was really nice to just like, have that, e together in such an intense moment. But they were very supportive. And my mom was very proud and thought it was beautiful.
